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jason

I like what you're talking about (I always appreciate your diagrams and text - they help me get a clearer idea of things) but with one difference. I don't think it's necessarily about "making them into church" as much as finding the redemptive potential in all things (being a terrible cynic most of the time I'm not as good at this as I wish I were). A friend of mine always says Jesus was about personalized evangalism as opposed to personal evangelism. Maybe that's what it is; "taking the events I'm used to and" discovering the "good news" in that situation. Maybe that is church... I don't know... Symantics maybe.

Naz

unconvinced by Jason's comments in so much that it doesn't address your no 1 which implies (to me) main church culture being tweaked to be more culturally relevant but assuming too much and changing too little. No 2 also potentially assumes too much. is there not a third option which "is more of the box" (as contradictory and impossible it literally is) of connecting to God's imagination and insight whilst being culturally connected and then reconstructing...???

steve collins

i'm just stating a couple of extreme positions to clarify a point and make people think about where they stand. in reality we're all somewhere in the middle. but i think a lot of church people more or less unconsciously assume number 1, and then i find myself at cross-purposes in arguments because i'm approaching it from more like number 2.

Boltono

Pulllease...for goodness sake STOP talking endlessly about "church" going round and round in soft never-settling concrete and start talking about Christ IN YOU and what you have discovered about that.
No offense meant, but "church" will not meet the desperate need for life inside humans that will sort out this cosmos by overcoming it via Christ in humans and effectively pouring out, which only Christ can give directly. Go to the source, not some backward grasp of what "church" is or isn't.
Don't waste your time and life.

steve collins

no, but 'church' is often the thing by which people judge whether it's worth giving christ a go.

in my case christ in me meant being asked to consider the whole question of 'church'. wisdom is proved right by all her children! ;)

sc

Boltono: church is worth the angst because Christianity isn't just "Christ in you" it's "Christ in us". That the hard/glorious/messy part.

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