hirsch and frost at london zoo

spent this evening at london zoo with alan hirsch and michael frost. they made me angry. most of their talk was taken up with the idea of 'communitas' - that which develops when a diverse group of people are thrown together in a situation of ordeal, danger, risk, and have to depend on each other to survive, and how when they survive/win/achieve they feel REALLY ALIVE. and how that liminal, risky situation is normative for the Church and what we should live for because we'd give anything to feel REALLY ALIVE. and mike frost referenced fight club a lot. and team sport. and being soldiers.

it made me angry because thrown together/ordeal/deadline/risk/survival is my everyday work experience, and it's no fun when it happens all the time. it burns. and this 'communitas' as described by frost sounds remarkably like the conventions of team-work and team-building within large corporations. and i thought:

if fight club is our everyday experience, where do we go to heal the wounds?
if church becomes fight club too, where do we go to heal the wounds?
what is church for people who have no time or energy to be church?

hirsch and frost take their image of communitas from rituals of initiation into manhood in africa, where boys become men by surviving together in the bush for a certain time. but this is a temporary state which gains significance by reference to a background of order and safety to which they return. if they do not return to society, they become the rootless gangs of unsocialised men who rape and murder in so much of africa. communitas as a permanent state is destructive.

it was a very 'aussie bloke' vision of church, male camaraderie, and i wondered what london women made of it. i haven't got a team sport bone in my body, and i suspect there's quite a few in alt worship like that - creatives tend not to be team people. it seems to me that hirsch and frost haven't got any answers for us - why should they? they come from a different context. it disappointed me though. i guess it's my own job to deal with the problems i feel strongly about or have most experience of.

Comments

[cheryl]

This is so liberating! I'm an australian woman who's always struggled with the picture of church that Hirsch and Frost imagine, for all the reasons you talk of. This is not a church i can belong to, or ever find a place in... and if this is the emerging church, i don't want it. So glad to hear it's not just me...

Please don't simply excuse it as being part of the Australian context. If it is part of the Australian context, the context needs to be challenged. i'm hoping it's not the whole picture, just perhaps the loudest part... but all that speaks loudly isn't always good...

rant over.

cheryl

[Alex]

I was most interested to read your comments. It seems there's been a lot of `build-up hype' to this event, going on what I read on some other UK blogs.
I'm trying hard not to think `bloody Sydney', as I know it's not all that.

I'm glad you raised the concerns. Are blokey strategies from the boardroom filtering unchecked into emerging church thinking? I remember hearing Michael Frost some years back and he was talking in a most compelling fashion about the idea of the `second conversion' (hardships in young faith leading to a new period of character building, etc.), which perhaps has naturally evolved into the ideas he shared in your meeting.

[Andii]

Isn't the point that the liminal experience is temporary and once the bonding is achieved then a more normalised existence then continues without so much of the 'on the edge' communal experience? IF the point is to keep the liminal going then I think that yoou are right: it's a seriously flawed model. In fact it is destructive of human welfare. As a life coach one of the things I'm looking out for in people's lives is the signs of having the paralimbic system constantly on alert, signalling the need to slow down and get a more balanced life. SRI's will result otherwise.

I can't believe that someone is suggesting that the adrenaline rush should be normal: I hope that this was not really what was being suggested.

I would suggest that if someone is using adrenaline to feel "really alive", then they are risking their long-term health -both mental and physical: the human body is not built to be on constant 'alert'.

It is possible to feel "really alive" after relaxing, even after meditation ...

[maggi]

hooray for you, Steve. Somebody had to say it, and you said it well.

[Tom Allen]

Thanks for the honest review - you have confirmed the fears of a small group of alt worship leaders in Yorkshire and saved us a journey to Sheffield which I suspect would have ended up in similar feelings of anger. We will simply spend the day instead together reviewing the real world!

I wonder if the emergent movement is begining to sucumb to the kind of guru tendencies which makes me so sceptical of the evangelical end of the Church.

I hope however that the emerging church is sufficently rooted in real experiences of local church (and has sufficient links with the Universal Church) that we will always remain suffiently sceptical of book-writers and theorists to avoid the trap.

[mark]

For an alternative, I like Ann Morisy's understanding that spiritual growth happens when we are put (or place ourselves) in situations, as communities, where we risk being overwhelmed and experience powerlessness. A much less 'macho' approach to mission (rather than re-imagining carrying the cross as an extreme sport).

[bill]

Some Stateside opinion, and this coming from someone who liked the book. You make some great observations. I guess part of what I want to say is, "Of course." Maybe we need to start expecting to disagree with or dislike 50% (or more)of what we hear and see. I think we ought to be able to validate those things that we get from others that are valuable in our own context as well as challenge them in their original contexts. This should prove to be quite healthy and helpful in our maturation process. I view alt worship this way as well all things emergent.

[Si Johnston]

OK...I'm going to cut against the grain here and throw some thoughts your way Steve. Many of these comments aren't resonating with me at all (although they may be fairly levelled). Incidentally, I've put my (rather shabby) notes on my blog from todays blah session.

I'd suggest that Frost and Hirsch are a breath of fresh air to the alt.worship scene. Firstly, alt.worship is, in my rather naive view, quite feminine. So let me take, for example, the over-emphasis on the doctrine of creation over and against the atonement (so we like 'creativity' and images of flowers/pregnant women and babies etc) to the hyper-relationality where talking becomes an end in itself. Virtually all my conversations recently with those long-in-the-tooth re. alt.worship have led me to conclude that it's spent too long navel-gazing and suturing wounds and that it's time it went on the rampage (ie., intentional mission). Could it be time for an evolutionary step in the emergence of the alt.worship movement?

Another reason why it might be good to listen to Frost and Hirsch is that it's fair to say that with current stats, it'd be nice to have some more men in the church. My limited sociology tells me that the whole fuzzy charismatic thing (that passed me by) seemed to connect with females more significantly than with males and so off the back of this, we've a lot less men in the church. Could it be that there's not enough to do with adversity/ordeal/challenge/survival that actually could fire some of us up without us needing to rape/pillage or be rootless?

Many of the girls that I went with last night, including my girlfriend Emily (who is, thankfully, as 'female' as the day is long), loved last night and came away enthused and excited. I'm not sure as to whether this shouldn't be a critique based more on stages of faith journey as opposed to gender as you and others are suggesting.

Finally, you didn't mention Alan's response to your question which I felt was prescient. He suggested that your question needed taken back a step or two to the issue of discipleship. I 'spiritually direct', 'mentor' or simply am friends with many London dwellers and come up against this frequently. Firstly, and you know this, there might need to be a greater degree of synthesis between our 'vocational lives' and 'faith'. Or, failing that, might we need to 'work' less and work out where God might use us in a way that seems more like our understanding of mission and fits our own particular gift base? I'm no glowing example, but I committed vocational suicide to do this and have, even since, cut my now paid job down within the church because its structures were preventing me from 'mission'. Many London Christian need to answer the question that Jesus asked and Al reiterated 'what should it profit a man if he should gain the world...?'

Some thoughts from a possible overly testosterone driven missioner...semicolondashbracket

[andy gr]

And on 'emergent like slime' a partial thumbs-up for Hirst and Frost from me as well - and I'm explicitly not high-testosterone, believe me!

[gordon]

At the blah event today - the one with hair (sorry awful with names!) expounded the concept of 'communitas' but with no mention of fight club.

His emphasis was I think was to suggest that community can sometimes be an inward parochial pastoral concept but for missional purposes needs to have a more outward emphasis. Communities formed under stress have a focus of communality that is more than fuzzy community.

He did borrow the image of african manhood initiation rituals - which probably was a weak metaphor. He could have equally have used the image of suffragettes.

But maybe I got the wrong end of the stick today!

[Steve Collins]

to respond to si:

the usual critique i hear of alt worship is that it's too male-dominated - boys with toys! which is something we've struggled over for a long time at Grace. our female members have been trying to sensitise us to what they see as overly male methods of argument and unexpressed power structures which they feel exclude them in subtle ways. so i wonder about arguments based on male bonding!

and how does creativity and nature get defined as feminine? aren't those artificial [fallen?] stereotypes?

and many of us have done 'rampage', and not found it too effective. rampage has been suffering disappointingly low numbers lately. rampage may be part of the problem. maybe we need some time out to figure out what might actually work in the future. and maybe that time is nearly over - but [speaking as a designer] there's a constant temptation in the church to want quick fixes which short-circuits the possibility of better solutions. i'm interested in the long term. say 50 years.

i wholly agree with alan hirsch that there's a challenge to our lifestyles. believe me i've thought a lot about it! the basic facts are these:

i've tried to commit 'vocational suicide' in favour of the church several times;
i don't get sufficient funding or work;
i have to get a 'proper' job again;
my marketable skills happen to be in a sector notorious for long hours and stress;
last time i spent six months applying for anything other than architecture, knowing what would happen;
it was the only job i got when i was down to my last few cents;
i set clear limits with my employers on what i was prepared to do in order to protect my other interests;
all this went by the board under pressure of short staffing, crises, the necessities of professional responsibility etc.
and i want to be with this firm until at least christmas for financial reasons, and my resolve has been severely tested. not to mention my health and sanity.

and you needn't think i don't pray. especially for a nice church organisation to come along and fund me to do this stuff. but i'm not an evangelist, youthworker or pastor, or any of their other existing roles that have funding allocations.

[Steve Collins]

gordon, i gather from jonny baker that hirsch and frost used a lot less of the communitas today and incorporated it into a broader approach which might have gone down better with me, at any rate!

[Andrew Hamilton]

Interesting to see the response these guys are generating in England!

Having heard their stuff and being familiar with it I am a little puzzled at the 'anger' reaction.

However, if (as I have heard) the English scene is strongly wed to alt worship then I can imagine how their stuff would be confronting.

Perhaps the question for me is 'where is the anger coming from?'

Alt worship has had very limited missional value here in Oz and has suffered from a woosy feminine flavour.

Interesting that all of the women at our last Forge gig (where Al did his communitas talk) all resonated strongly with his insights.

Different cultures?

Maybe...

[Barry]

I believe that all Frost & Hirsch are suggesting in the idea of 'Communitas' is that we find our true collective idenity when we engage together in our prime calling of mission. Never a truer word has been uttered! It's not particularly Australian or even Sydney for that matter, it's biblical! Take the early church for example.

[mark sayers]

Whilst totally validating anyones feelings who have posted their frustrations with Al and Mikes talk, i had to have a little giggle at some of the over the top comments posted on this comments page. I have worked with both al and mike for years and i am one of the leaders at the community that Al began. I think what has happened here is that people have taken a few comments made by the guys and glued them to the 'fosters lager/convict' cultural stereotypes of australians that britains of the upper and middle class ilk have held for years. Both Al's and Mike's missional context in Manly and St Kilda is totally inner city bohemian, where a spotting of the 'macho aussie blokes' you refer to, are about as rare as the extinct tasmainian tiger.

To hear Al and Mike described as "macho Aussie Blokes" who have brought a 'boardroom agenda' into the emerging church scene has sent the many of the forge team back here in oz into fits of laughter. What you guys heard was a the result of years of thought and response to what is going on in the aussie contemporary and emerging church and wider culture where men are simply leaving and never coming back, killing themselves in record numbers, and suffering from a pandemic of depression. I find that al and mikes stuff is a good balance to the majority of alt wor/emerging/ and even the contemporary hillsong model of church which is feminine in tone. Sure maybe some 'london women' would be offended, but i am sure that there is many 'london men' out there who are more at home in the pub than salviating over the tate modern, guys who think that Henri Nouwen is the reserve team keeper for Fulham. i thought the emerging church was meant to be about balance and listening to diverse voices.

As someone who has spent the last six years in mission and community with al and mike. I have found far more healing and mending of my wounds than i ever did in the Alt wor stuff i was involved with before. Alan's references to African initiation and soldiers etc come out of his own story as someone raised in Africa and who has served in combat situtions. Should he leave that out because it does not fit with the current UK alt worship orthodoxy? Of course Al and Mike do not have all the answers, but to write their contribution to the discussion with objections that seem more rooted in cultural prejudice and a narrow minded "alt wor scene" insularity is unfortunate. (believe me i am not missing the irony in my last statement).

Now that all said its time to scratch my giant beer gut, scream across my kangaroo infested farm at my sheila to get me a fosters from my esky before i go and play a bloody grouse game of footy.

all in good fun. keep up the great site steve. No offence meant. Peace.

[barry]

heer, heer Mark Sayers! By the way, can u get your sheila to get me a fosters as well? I have to go and get my blue heeler off the back of my holden one tonner!

[cheryl]

Hmmm.... Andrew Hamilton writes that Australian alt worship has "suffered from a woosy feminine" flavour...?

As a person who can't help being feminine (part of my God-given gender), I find that statement of what i might be able bring to the Australian alt-worship context quite... well... problematic.

I know you weren't trying to be offensive to women, I'm very sure the thought that you might be would horrify you... but there seems to be something implicit in these comments that the kind of space and community that women might create - that might be labelled "feminine" - won't be enough to be missional or bring in the kingdom.

The thing that draws me again and again to the story of Jesus is that he took what the prevailing culture defined as "weak", and showed it instead as being strong. He respected the feminine, and found a home in the space created by it... It's not the whole of the story, or course, but it's an essential part of it.

What i really wanted to say, though, is that there's more than one form of alt worship in australia, and more than one culture, theology and ecclesiology shaping alt worship in Australia. There are groups like Forge who are doing stuff... there are also many denominational groups who are exploring alternative worship, as well as other non-denominational groups that don't have the high profile of Forge. Each seem to be very different in shape and form and context. And so they should be.

In spite of that, it seems very hard to find experiences of alt worship that offer the promise of a church that will be very different, not just in its form of worship, or the way it engages in mission... but also in the theology that shapes its life, leadership, commitment to justice, and models a radical, inclusive community, completely redefining power and authority.

That's not too much to ask, is it?!

(Sorry ... I know all that's inarticulate... I'm in another airport lounge, having been flying around the world for 28 hours... )

cheryl

[gareth]

have posted a few reponses of my own on the mootblog. thanks for your steve they helped me in my thinking :-)

[Andrew Hamilton]

Apologies Cheryl - I shouldn't have - and didn't actually intend to use 'woosy and feminine' in the same phrase. I appreciate your gracious response there.

[steve collins]

all of this just illustrates the perils of cultural context!

obviously it's risky for an australian [or south african] man in england to discuss the church in terms of male bonding rituals in the bush, the buzz of team sports, waterskiing, and mateship [all mentioned, some at length]. i wonder what the danger topics for englishmen in australia are? :)

maybe it wasn't the most nuanced talk they could have given. mike's inner evangelist was on show! :) i do see the point of the communitas thing, but i'd have liked to hear about other aspects to round it out. i actually agree with quite a lot of what they've written, but little of it is new to me, and what i wanted to know was, how? how do we do these desirable things, get from A to B?

i'm wondering about the difference between a church that has liminality forced upon it, and one that seeks liminality. i suspect Biblical and healthy liminality is of the first kind. The latter is the stuff of sects. it's difficult to adopt liminality as a *principle*, if it's healthiest as a by-product [of faithful living].

[steve collins]

oh yes, and capturing and killing a pig! as your inititation ritual! and i was thinking, well, as a vegetarian and a christian i'd refuse to do it. poor pig! :D

[Andrew S.]

Having read through all the comments preceeding mine, which is forth coming. I find them all quite alarming.

As I have reviewed the book and made notable comments to myself throughout, I have discovered here, as in the book, little biblical support for the imaginative approach to the comments about their lecture or their approach to missions. Whether for or against their stance.

They appear to be standing on shakey ground when trying to support their ideas with quotes from intellectuals and philosophers.

I have the alt church paradigm in my history as do many of you. However, I do want to think out of the box a bit now and then. And even then, I run everything through that wonderful filter called the Bible. I believe all things should be scrutinized through His word and teachings. And that one must overcome their predujices in doing so.

I suppose I have just fed myself to the lions, but don't we all at one time or another?

[Ian Mobsby]

Wow - you can't say it didn't create a response. I can't help feeling a little sorry for Frost & Hirsch. Your criticisms regarding male dominant models and language, pic-n-mix argument drawing on bits of information to formulate an under-justified or proven argument, slighlty white middle classed and western, the metaphor of communitas - what ever you want to call it, does have some corrective qualifies that challenge what seems to have become in alt worship circles - as church as pseudo-therapy group. I like the reconnection with emerging church as church as mission rather than church in isolation from contemporary culture. As an ardent alt worshipper, I would be the first to say that we have neglected mission as written up in the CofE Mission-Shaped Church report. Steve - in response to your hard words at the beginning - is that I would say I am fed up with church as hospital - too many people licking their wounds and not wanting to take responsbility for spiritual questing. Church as therapy group - which many alt worship communities assimulate is in danger sometimes of becoming a bit nanny church as in nanny state. There is a need to re-engage with our consumer society and not be of consumerism - a radical return to a distinctive community with values.

It made lots of connections with the good of liberation theology - a return to right action (orthopraxis) instead of constant inaction due to focus on right thinking (orthodoxy).

Mission is a dirty word - bu there is a place for us to unpack a radical interpreation of church from an emerging church perspective - a churcn that engages with culture. I have blogged further on this on mootblog.net

[hamo]

It all seems to suggest that communication is a dicey practice!

What's said (or written) and what is subequently heard can obviously vary significantly.

Like Mark I was having a chuckle with some of our Forge interns yesterday afternoon at the hornets nest that has emerged from Al & Mike's stuff.

The beauty of it all is that a 'hornets nest' gets people talking - nice pleasant words about loving Jesus, reading your Bible and praying would leave everyone yawning.

While the UK is a different scene to Oz I really hope the spirit stirs stuff up and
that it is a profitable time for everyone - Al and Mike included!

[Barry]

In response to Andrew S comments on the biblical nature of Frost & Hirsch's book. I quote Andrew, "As I have reviewed the book and made notable comments to myself throughout, I have discovered here, as in the book, little biblical support for the imaginative approach." A point of clarification, "are u suggesting that there is no biblical basis for what Frost & Hirsch have to say?" If so, I think u should read the book again. If u r not suggesting that, apologies mate!